Getting frustrated that terrible play at Bugsysclub constantly being rewarded

[donkeydavea]

Just had to vent this in the forum. Day after day I am having losing sessions against terrible play. I just wanted to post an example:

DonkeyDaveA dealt down Ts Th
DonkeyDaveA raises $3 to $6
Piemaster folds
gellenbr calls $6
Hansen85 folds
Not_Sure folds
kancher2 folds
Zimmy88 folds
>>>DEALING FLOP<<< [ 5d Jh Ac ]
DonkeyDaveA bets $3
gellenbr calls $3
>>>DEALING TURN<<< [ 9d ]
DonkeyDaveA checks
gellenbr checks
>>>DEALING RIVER<<< [ 3d ]
DonkeyDaveA checks
gellenbr bets $6
DonkeyDaveA calls $6
gellenbr cards were 7d 8d
DonkeyDaveA cards were Th Ts
gellenbr wins $32.50 with a nine high flush
hdmr5cards was kicked for sitting out more than 12 hands
>>>SUMMARY<<<
Hand Ended: Friday March 28th 10:01:43 AM CDT 2008
Total Pot: $32.50 ($1.50 rake)
Board: [ 5d Jh Ac 9d 3d ]
Seat 1 : Piemaster did not bet, folded pre-flop
Seat 2 : sk1hr345 did not bet
Seat 3 : hdmr5cards did not bet
Seat 4 : gellenbr bet $15, won $32.50, net +$17.50, showed hand [ 7d 8d
]
Seat 5 : Hansen85 did not bet, folded pre-flop
Seat 6 : Not_Sure (button) did not bet, folded pre-flop
Seat 7 : kancher2 (small blind) lost $1, folded pre-flop
Seat 8 : pgawido did not bet
Seat 9 : Zimmy88 (big blind) lost $3, folded pre-flop
Seat 10 : DonkeyDaveA lost $15, showed hand [ Th Ts ]
------------------------------------------------------------
Now I know a lot of people are going to say that this isnt post worthy, but what made it so bad were my opponents comments following the hand. I made a comment like "are you serious?". He explained to me that I made only a minumum raise?.....its 3/6 limit...of course I could only make a minumum raise. Next he told me that he only had to call a $3 dollar bet to pick up a draw.... and then he says I played it bad for checking the turn...if he wasnt going to fold 78 of diamonds on a flop of AK5 with 1 diamond...he def not going to fold the turn....I saved $6 dollars in my view.
All of my opponents statements would make sense if the pot was multiway offering good odds for the runner runner draw. The common reaction to this would be "you should be happy to have such a terrible player in the game", and usually I would be happy if after 70,000 hands this kind of play wasnt being rewarded hand after hand.

[bcblack182]

limit holdem made me angry for about 5 years...

[bojazi]

lolol well lets look at this hand - although i dont play limit holde, i played limit 08 before for a while. noone ever folds the c bet. it is pointless to bet flop and check turn, than call river with underpair. if u keep playing like that i guarantee everyone floats u. weak draws or not. did u call the river jus to see a bad beat- also bad-- i know u want to see how bad he played the hand, but u played it even worse. sorry

[bcblack182]

i've played tons of LHE and think you played it fine. The river call depends on your read of the player, but I would call against most people because people are aggro.

[donkeydavea]

"No one ever folds the c bet...." wow, im blown away by the detailed analysis of the hand. I guess ive been playing all wrong....guess its ok to rationalize every flop call..."the voices in my head...", "those are my lucky cards", "one night I was drunk, and I won a hand just like that...."

As for the river call, I didnt put my opponent on an ace because of the lack of preflop reraise. Even though my raise was UTG, reraises with weak aces are common. I was also convinced he may have had q10 or kq...maybe I think too hand specific.

Maybe I was convinced that good decision making was part of the game...maybe I dont live in a world where pro players go to Washington to convince Capital Hill this is a game of skill........

[donkeydavea]

Maybe Ill just pray bad players dont "float" me and continue to suck out on the river.....

[Barton]

Similiar to this one. Note the betting


Event Name: Gold League Holdem/Omaha Hilo 1/2 and 1/2 (#4599339)
Event Started: Friday March 28th 2:31:00 AM CDT 2008
Event Type: Real Money Ring Game
Game: Limit Hold 'em
Stakes: $5/$10 Limits ($0.50 Minimum Chip)
Seat 1 : Doom starts with $150.50
Seat 3 : crybaby99 starts with $476.50
Seat 5 : sarbe starts with $142
Seat 6 : TMNT starts with $238
Seat 8 : Hero starts with $786.50
Seat 10 : villian starts with $448
Seat 8 : Hero has the dealer button
villian posts the small blind $2
Doom posts the big blind $5
>>>DEALING HOLE CARDS<<<
Hero dealt down 8h Jh
crybaby99 folds
sarbe folds
TMNT folds
Hero raises $5 to $10
villian raises $5 to $15
Doom folds
Hero calls $5
>>>DEALING FLOP<<< [ Jc 2c 5d ]
villian bets $5
Hero raises $5 to $10
villian raises $5 to $15
Hero calls $5
>>>DEALING TURN<<< [ 9s ]
villian bets $10
Hero calls $10
>>>DEALING RIVER<<< [ 6s ]
villian bets $10
Hero calls $10
villian cards were 7c 8d
Hero mucks hand
villian wins $102 with a nine high straight
>>>SUMMARY<<<
Hand Ended: Friday March 28th 6:55:12 PM CDT 2008
Total Pot: $102 ($3 rake)
Board: [ Jc 2c 5d 9s 6s ]
Seat 1 : Doom (big blind) lost $5, folded pre-flop
Seat 3 : crybaby99 did not bet, folded pre-flop
Seat 5 : sarbe did not bet, folded pre-flop
Seat 6 : TMNT did not bet, folded pre-flop
Seat 8 : Hero (button) lost $50, mucked hand (cards were 8h Jh)
Seat 10 : villian (small blind) bet $50, won $102, net +$52, showed hand [ 7c 8d ]

[riverrunner]

If you are playing limit, miracle hands shouldn't surprise you.

Nothing anyone can say will make you feel better. Commenting in the chat doesn't help you.

Finding the seat on the other side of him would.

[Barton]

Not all miracles are equal. It's one thing if you have AK and villian has AQ and the board comes AK2 Q Q. I don't think I will ever understand the thought process on my example or the OP's

[Not_Sure]

Finding another seat doesnt changes things usually. Because it is limit the play is worse. The have no chance to stack someone and they are getting incorrect odds to suckout. I am starting to think quite a few players on Bugsy Club are working together. Something needs to be done about this. I like the site but I have played over 25000 hands on this site and the things I have seen make no sense but some bad play and some players working together. It would be ashame for such a good site with good service and to have a few players tarnish the sites rep. Its kind of sick when you have a few players running around chasing a new player to all kinds of different tables playing against him together. Talking about it and capping the betting. Having the one player playing against 3 and 4 players working together. I have played on many sites and have been a winning player on all but 2. One was Absolute and we all know cheating was going on there. I expect their to be times I run bad and get cold decked but this is a joke. BUGSY'S CLUB is a awesome site and I am sure they will catch the players are cheating so enough. I cannot wait.

[donkeydavea]

Right Barton, Riverrunner missed the point. I am concerned with the thought process of the player not the actual outcome of the hand. My concern keeps growing because I have hundreds and hundreds of these example hands just like the one I posted. Makes you wonder why the same players stay with those type hands and constantly win.

[rob]

Finding another seat doesnt changes things usually. Because it is limit the play is worse. The have no chance to stack someone and they are getting incorrect odds to suckout. I am starting to think quite a few players on Bugsy Club are working together. Something needs to be done about this. I like the site but I have played over 25000 hands on this site and the things I have seen make no sense but some bad play and some players working together. It would be ashame for such a good site with good service and to have a few players tarnish the sites rep. Its kind of sick when you have a few players running around chasing a new player to all kinds of different tables playing against him together. Talking about it and capping the betting. Having the one player playing against 3 and 4 players working together. I have played on many sites and have been a winning player on all but 2. One was Absolute and we all know cheating was going on there. I expect their to be times I run bad and get cold decked but this is a joke. BUGSY'S CLUB is a awesome site and I am sure they will catch the players are cheating so enough. I cannot wait.

If you are seeing signs of collusion, please report it to me or Bugsys Security. Its foolish for anyone to choose Bugsys as a spot to collude; they're hard on cheats.

Rob

[t-t-r]

hard to prove anything in limit....someone could be just powering through...or simply steaming...i'm kind of mentally done with bugsy anyway...and if i go bust...will not come back again...stopped playing bigger games long time ago...i remember one day at 2/4, 3/6 nl when i got my set beaten 3 times in an hour by runner runner boat....in style...board 28J, me holding 88...other guy holding KJ...he somehow put's in almost 1k on that flop and turn and river comes K...J...that just doesnt happen...under 2%....3times in 1hour....thats where bugsy and i departed...

[bojazi]

"No one ever folds the c bet...." wow, im blown away by the detailed analysis of the hand. I guess ive been playing all wrong....guess its ok to rationalize every flop call..."the voices in my head...", "those are my lucky cards", "one night I was drunk, and I won a hand just like that...."


yea i didnt say that--. but when u play people who c bet than check turn, there is really no point to not call a cbet with most hand. u dont hit most flops, and when u are guaranteeing a free turn ur stupid to fold.

cbet in limit are pointless becuase they dont show any strength imo- any profitable player know that, now im not saying 78 is a good call but im saying ur alot of hand will call u, and if u dont lead on turn, and better yet check call rivers, u cant complain about hands becuase ur giving free cards.

if ur gonna show strength do in through out the hand otherwise fold the river where ur prolly beat.

the reason why limit win rates are lower when beating a game is cause u get drawn out on more, becuase people are priced in, so people need to relax, stop complaining about limit hands, esp when they don't play them nearly as well as they think.

[riverrunner]

Most of the thought process on these players is motivated by fear that if they fold some magic cards would have come. They need almost absolute proof that it is hopeless. Even 90% proof sometimes isn't enough. They aren't reading your hand, or the board texture. They are looking for some slight reason to peel and see if they can pick up something that will guarantee they have no chance so that then they can fold.

On this hand, he is going to see the 5 and say, if I fold a fucking 4 or 6 or a 9 or a diamond is going to come and then I would have folded a chance to win. Fuck that, I'm gonna see. They don't see the Ace and the Jack and say well the only hands he could have that missed is KQ/KT/QT and I'm still drawing damn slim vs that cause they have better hands and better draws.

The sites that show your folded hole cards on screen, help play into this psychology. "Damn, I would have had a straight" makes them not fold the next time they have a runner-runner gutshot to a gutshot.

They call preflop so they can see the flop. They call the flop to see if they can pick up some reason to continue: a pair they can make two pair with, another card to some weak backdoor draw. They know if they fold, that card will come cause this shit is rigged against them and that is why they lose.

They don't see the game the way we do.

When you check the turn here, with a 2 card draw if behind you are making a decision based on controlling the bets and acknowledging that you are in a weird spot but want to showdown. So you do. If he has J2o or 24o and wins, it's just as stupid. But if he has 78dd it's not because they chose to pay one more bet to see if they pick up anything and can comfortably fold the turn if shown the light of hopelessness?

You chose a way to play for a reason, and it doesn't matter what their thought process or anything is. It makes it easier if you can completely understand it, but even if you do you wouldn't change the way you'd play vs them. You got the most you could, lost the least and the hand is over. Somebody gets awarded the chips and another hand starts. Yeah it's frustrating when it happens over and over. My seat comment was to say that if you are getting regularly cold-called, it's not a bad thing to move where you can play the hand in position rather than out of position vs a bad player.

I'm sure I'm still missing your point, but at least I expressed mine!

If you let these hands eat at you, it affects your approach, and usually introduces slight flaws into your game that either doesn't extract value where you should, or has you calling down when you shouldn't. All of that affects winrate much more than losing a small pot to some unlikely holding; which makes these suckouts seem more devastating than they really are.

[bojazi]

i didnt like this post from the OP title, tired of all bad plays getting rewarded or what not

1- why do u not want bad players with bad draws calling u
2- variance and missed bet/free cards in limit are gonna be a big factor
3- max ur hand or dont complain, u can not play agg passive and expect to be a winning player- becuase u miss max value, like u did and prolly do alot bu missing turn bet. and u pay off a hand that a fish rarely tries to steal with a bet- where u beat nothing.

some people might call to see a miracle card, but a good player calls with wide ranges or makes plays knowing that unless u got a monster the agg weak player will let u see a free card. now 78 is a extreme but i feel like if a weak king called on flop he would also complain calling the player fish because he lost. when in reality.

people just need to look at ur hands and see your mistakes rather than ur opponenets, people get to much of an pride when the play cuase they assume they great and have no leaks- so wrong-- and lay off the agg weak style and dumb river calls or just dont post them and expect sympathy lol

[Barton]

A lot of what River says is true. I find myself failing to value bet the river as often as I should and paying off when I shouldnt, especially on a day I'm running bad.



If you are seeing signs of collusion, please report it to me or Bugsys Security. Its foolish for anyone to choose Bugsys as a spot to collude; they're hard on cheats.

Rob


I've never played a single hand of NL at Bugsy but at FL I have not once got "collusion" vibes. You get the "superuser vibes" LOL:D. Seriously though, I think it's because many players read somewhere that in FL short handed aggression is good then they apply it wrong.

[bojazi]

I am concerned with the thought process of the player not the actual outcome of the hand. My concern keeps growing because I have hundreds and hundreds of these example hands just like the one I posted. Makes you wonder why the same players stay with those type hands and constantly win.--

they dont constantly win- losses seem to stick out more than wins - l

[donkeydavea]

More moronic play......

Hand Number: 522,823,350
Table Number: 7,334,174
Event Name: Gold League Table Corleone (#4615789)
Event Started: Sunday April 6th 5:33:00 PM CDT 2008
Event Type: Real Money Ring Game
Game: Limit Hold 'em
Stakes: $1/$2 Limits ($0.25 Minimum Chip)
Seat 1 : DonkeyDaveA starts with $190.75
Seat 2 : justblaze007 starts with $35.25
Seat 3 : Gilbert2008 starts with $27.25
Seat 5 : G.Quagmire starts with $19.50
Seat 6 : mizuruin starts with $66.25
Seat 7 : GeneralZaad starts with $72.50
Seat 9 : Sneeze4 starts with $132.25
Seat 10 : crybaby99 starts with $50
Seat 7 : GeneralZaad has the dealer button
Sneeze4 posts the small blind $0.50
crybaby99 posts the big blind $1
>>>DEALING HOLE CARDS<<<
DonkeyDaveA dealt down 3c 3d
DonkeyDaveA calls $1
justblaze007 folds
Gilbert2008 raises $1 to $2
G.Quagmire folds
mizuruin folds
GeneralZaad raises $1 to $3
Sneeze4 calls $2.50
crybaby99 folds
DonkeyDaveA calls $2
Gilbert2008 calls $1
>>>DEALING FLOP<<< [ 5h 3h Jd ]
Sneeze4 checks
DonkeyDaveA bets $1
Gilbert2008 calls $1
GeneralZaad raises $1 to $2
Sneeze4 folds
DonkeyDaveA raises $1 to $3
Gilbert2008 calls $2
GeneralZaad raises $1 to $4
DonkeyDaveA calls $1
Gilbert2008 calls $1
>>>DEALING TURN<<< [ 2d ]
DonkeyDaveA checks
Gilbert2008 checks
GeneralZaad bets $2
DonkeyDaveA calls $2
Gilbert2008 calls $2
>>>DEALING RIVER<<< [ As ]
DonkeyDaveA checks
Gilbert2008 bets $2
GeneralZaad calls $2
DonkeyDaveA calls $2
Gilbert2008 cards were 4s 4c
GeneralZaad mucks hand
DonkeyDaveA cards were 3c 3d
Gilbert2008 wins $36 with a five high straight
GeneralZaad: wow
DonkeyDaveA: omg

[Lee777]

what do u think is going to happen in 1-2 Limit

[donkeydavea]

Out of about 900 hands yesterday, I could have posted at least 40 hands that were just as bad if not worse...Including one where a player capped betting pre flop with K4 offsuit on the $3/6 limit in a 3 way pot when I had AA...Other player had KK....flop came Q94 and called 3 bets on flop and turn to river a 4. Funny....guy on youtube has video showing 20 bad beats in a 24 hour period....too funny. Try 40 every 6 hour session......
The sad part is I am sure some bonehead will find some obscure reason why I am at fault for losing these hands....

[EricBlade]

I suppose I could point out that the average winning hand in Hold 'Em is two pair...

*ducks*