6man - All in blind vs blind

[PauloCot]

Another random hand which me and my mate disagree on.

13$ 6man Turbo: 3 players left, blinds 100/200

Button folds (2000)
SB raises all in with KQ (2000)
BB calls all in with A5 (5000)

BB knows that SB is tight. Me and my mate were playing on the same table.

Do you guys think the shove/call is good? Opinions please...

[Barton]

A5 57.82%
KQ 41.79%

Mathematically the call is clearly correct.
In the real world though the BB has a big lead and surrendering 200 doesn't hurt , so I probably wait for a better spot. Also it isn't desperation time yet for the sb so he could easily have a pair or a better ace.

If the stacks were different or the blinds bigger everything changes

[viffer]

From SB, I think I would do the same, quality starting hand against a random BB with position. From the BB, well it depends on the player whether it's time to make a stand. If he's done this the last 4 of 5 hands, I probably make the call on the assumption he is trying to steel. If he has folded the last 4 or 5 and now pulls this, I think I let it go and wait for a better spot. Especially if he is playing tight, I'm going to be putting him under pressure when he limps SB and also when I'm on the button so there will be plenty of chances to take some chips so this hand doesn't seem worth the risk.

[bcblack182]

This is a problem for a ICM calculator like sng wiz. The shove is borderline and the call is correct. (I think, haven't studied these in a while so could be confused) Having more chips means the BB should call a wider range. If you are playing sng's and don't know the math on this spot you should stop playing them until you learn it. It is really easy with the program I mentioned. These scenarios are mathematically solved and can be played perfectly if you put in a little work.

The shove is borderline because the BB has lots of chips so should call more. If the BB and Button stack sizes were switched it would be a no brainer shove every time. I haven't done these in a while so don't remember right now if the shove is correct or not.

[viffer]

not sure on how sng wiz works, but I'm surprised KQ in SB is borderline. interested in why it's not an easy shove as it stands? Surely KQ against a random hand is strong with only 3 dealt. We don't know his hand at this point. We want to play it, limping it is a huge no no (in my book anyway) so it's a raise. 3x or 4x we are pretty much pot commited especially when we follow up with a Cbet on the flop... so we might as well shove and take the blind. comments?

[bcblack182]

Its borderline because of stack sizes. SNG's aren't normal poker. A big part of the EV calcs are stack sizes, including the stack size of the player not in the hand.

[PauloCot]

I agree with Viffer. Although KQ is a dog against ace5, it's a stronger hand nonetheless. KQ is weak against very few hands 3 handed unless very unlucky whereas ace5 is weak against a lot. A good players all in range from the SB in this example would be any pair above 7s, A9+, KQ and maybe KJ. Taking all those hands into consideration it makes ace5 a poor hand which is why I firmly believe it's a poor call.

[bcblack182]

heh i was way off. Like I said it has been a while. Here is what the calculator says to do:

sb should shove: 38.8%, 22+ Ax+ K3s+ K9o+ Q5s+ Q9o+ J7s+ J9o+ T7s+ T9o 96s+ 86s+ 76s 65s

bb should call: 18.9%, 44+ A2s+ A7o+ KTs+ KTo+ QJs

[PauloCot]

Not that I should be arguing with it as it's a machine but I think those results are very loose. I don't agree with shoving less than K10 or any Q but QJs. I wouldn't call with anything less than KQ, A9+ or 55+.

[bcblack182]

Like I said you guys need to get sngwiz and learn this stuff if you play sng's.

:)

Playing these ranges will max your EV and also raise your variance. If you play a lower variance game you will also have lower EV.

The ranges do shift if you adjust your opponents perceived range, but you should still be shoving a lot of weak hands.

[Barton]

that looks to weak for a small blind shove to me too. He has 10 BB left

[bcblack182]

Well I'm not gonna try and convince anyone of icm theory etc...I don't even play sng's anymore. If you are really interested go to the 2+2 sng forum, they can explain it to you. There are many situations where it is correct to shove any 2 from the SB when you are 10 bb deep. For example:

Button: 500 chips
You: 3000
BB: 3000

If it is folded to you you should shove any 2 if BB has a reasonable calling range.

Using this stuff really helped my results when I played them a lot.

[viffer]

I agree with Viffer. Although KQ is a dog against ace5, it's a stronger hand nonetheless. KQ is weak against very few hands 3 handed unless very unlucky whereas ace5 is weak against a lot. A good players all in range from the SB in this example would be any pair above 7s, A9+, KQ and maybe KJ. Taking all those hands into consideration it makes ace5 a poor hand which is why I firmly believe it's a poor call.


I'm shoving on a wider range that this from the SB. As Barton says, we only have 10bb's so for me, all hands from any position are either fold or shove. Any pair, any A, good K's, high Q's and maybe JT. How low I go will depend on the player. Weak tight, I'm going to take liberties

[senorbum]

SnGWiz doesn't solve the fact that there are table dynamics. Does BB fold a lot more than he should? Does he call more than he should? Has SB been shoving a ton? Is the button passive or active? Lots of things come into play here, so following SNGWiz is not always the MOST profitable. It may be profitable, but it doesn't guarantee the max EV.

[GottaFold]

I don't care what type of player we're up against. With only 10xBB I'm gonna ship KQ from the SB every time. There's no other way to play it short stacked and folding would just be awful. If I'm the player in the BB I'm snap calling that shove against all but the nittiest players. I almost always play cash games so I don't know anything about SNG Wiz, but those ranges it gives seem good to me. I'd rather make a loose mistake and give myself a chance to win than make a tight mistake and get blinded away.

[senorbum]

I don't care what type of player we're up against. With only 10xBB I'm gonna ship KQ from the SB every time. There's no other way to play it short stacked and folding would just be awful. If I'm the player in the BB I'm snap calling that shove against all but the nittiest players. I almost always play cash games so I don't know anything about SNG Wiz, but those ranges it gives seem good to me. I'd rather make a loose mistake and give myself a chance to win than make a tight mistake and get blinded away.

The first step to playing SnG's is to cash. Once you cash, then play for the win.

[GottaFold]

The first step to playing SnG's is to cash. Once you cash, then play for the win.
I don't know if that's quite true. If you cash a few times less and win a few times more, you'll make more money.