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jwoodster
06-09-2008, 07:40 PM
Here is a hand for evaluation:

I will start with the preflop action and then move on to the flop, turn and river in stages. Let's have a discussion at each stage.

5/10 limit 7 players

player on button has AA
player under the gun has 55


Situation:

Pre-flop:
player under the gun w/ 55 has come out calling, next 3 players fold, player on button w/ AA raises , small blind folds and big blind folds.

What should the player under the gun do? Call the raise or fold?
Did the player make a mistake by even calling the original 1 small bet.

Flop to come...........

Barton
06-09-2008, 07:46 PM
With 7 players UTG should of raised or folded not called. I lean slightly toward raising.

jwoodster
06-09-2008, 07:49 PM
Why raise Barton? What factors should he /she consider before deciding to call, raise or fold.

I forgot to mention that the player with AA who raised is a tight/aggressive player.

cainer
06-09-2008, 09:07 PM
Here is a hand for evaluation:

I will start with the preflop action and then move on to the flop, turn and river in stages. Let's have a discussion at each stage.

5/10 limit 7 players

player on button has AA
player under the gun has 55


Situation:

Pre-flop:
player under the gun w/ 55 has come out calling, next 3 players fold, player on button w/ AA raises , small blind folds and big blind folds.

What should the player under the gun do? Call the raise or fold?
Did the player make a mistake by even calling the original 1 small bet.

Flop to come...........

I know a shit load of players that play all pocket pairs in limit poker in any position, so, the player calling pocket fives is about the norm play for most poker players.

With the pocket fives being the onmly one to limp, it looks like the guy on the button is trying to isolate and get it one on one with the futg player by his raise on the button. Of course the pocket fives is going to call another bet by the button raiser. He probably thinks he is ahead at this time. CALL for sure.

Barton
06-09-2008, 09:43 PM
If you limp then you pretty much have to fold if you don't flop a set. If you raise you have a better idea of where you are. That's why 7 players is the key. I don't mind limping small pairs with 10 players and I will auto-raise with any pair 5 handed. 6 or 7 it gets murky

jwoodster
06-09-2008, 10:19 PM
good discussion, I will wait for a couple of days to see if anyone else has any opinions then I will weigh in with my 2 cents and then move on to the flop.

riverrunner
06-10-2008, 08:47 AM
No table conditions, but limping 55 UTG in a 7 handed 5/10 game is usually wrong. It rarely will get enough limpers behind you in an unraised pot to play for set value.

Now that you did limp, and the button raises and it is heads up you have a few choices - none of which really are stellar:

a) Represent a bigger hand a Limp-Reraise, hoping to seize initiative and lead the flop. You committ yourself to putting in quite a number of bets into a small pot to shake off an isolating button who is either ahead or has generally at least 6 outs against you. You'll be capped in this particular hand and have no initiative and so this plan sort of sucks.

b) call and CR the flop, lead the turn. Fold to anything else, and check-fold most rivers if called on the turn.

I gotta run, but seriously UTG is in a dumb spot and put himself there.

jwoodster
06-10-2008, 12:05 PM
sorry guys and gals as river runner said I forgot to put the table conditions: it is a loose aggressive game

viffer
06-10-2008, 03:14 PM
Agree, open limping 55 from EP is not good. Unlikely to get enough limpers for the set and when you miss, you are out of position for the rest of the hand and pretty much toast with a weak hand a 2 outs. So this is either raise to thin the field to ideally HU or if you don't think you'll get the folds through, then muck it.

In this situation 55 has limped and faces a raise. It's already HU so a re raise is not going to achieve anything. I think a call here is the only play. I'm praying for a rags flop to get fiesty with and try and steal initiative on the flop. A flop donk or C/Raise will probably let us know where we stand and then we can review. I don't think we gain anything by 3 betting pre here.

riverrunner
06-10-2008, 07:36 PM
Only real reason to 3bet is to appear to have a huge hand and get better control vs an agressive isolation raise, and to offset the times you may Limp Reraise with AA in this spot for meta-game purposes. Of course vs. AA it doesn't do much :-)

Barton
06-10-2008, 07:48 PM
In the low stakes games players will raise with all sorts of garbage, but when they 3 bet an early position raiser they always have a real hand. High pairs, AK, maybe AQs. Raising makes the play of the rest of the hand much easier.

viffer
06-11-2008, 03:18 AM
I'm trying to ignore the fact we know it's AA on the button.

I see your point but 3 betting pre pretty much commits you to a continuation on the flop. (yeah, I know he has aces and he would cap but ignoring that it's AA) It's position that screws this up. With the larger pot of a 3 bet(button will never fold to the 3 here regardless of cards), button is unlikely to fold to a small bet on the flop even if say he has AQ and misses and may well raise a flop cbet (even with AQ). Your initiative that you paid for pre has now been lost because your out of position and just about any flop is going to look bad for us. Even something as ugly as 3,7,T. Simply calling pre gives you a bit more flexibility and your not pressured to Cbet. Now you could Craise a flop like 3,7,T and normally get a fold to a turn bet (unless he hit). You could donk a flop with an A or paint in it and represent... or you could just check fold and wait for a better spot with say all broadway flop.

For me, a 3 bet pre...
won't make anyone fold... it's already HU.
Will increase the pot for better odds for overcards to the flop to draw
Pretty much commits you to fire again regardless of flop, in fact there is more pressure to fire on the flops that are worst for us (ie broadway) we represented big pre, we surely must have hit this big flop...
And we can lose initiative very easily on the flop because we are out of position.It's the opening limp that caused all this trouble in the first place and this shows why open limping is such a bad idea.

Just my thoughts... I love these kind of discussions

riverrunner
06-11-2008, 10:54 AM
I'm with you. If I do feel a need to apply meta-game vs regulars where I may find an AA utg limp-reraise profitable, and I have to balance then I'd balance it with something like 87s, T9s rather than a small pocket pair. It gives enough variance to my range when I do limp-reraise, but gives me more room to manage throughout various flop textures.

Personally in this hand I'd have folded to start with. Especially now that the game is described as a LAG 5-10 game. I don't give up any real value by folding it UTG. I may gain a small bit by raising it. But limping it just opens up a wound to bleed. You will get isolated by somebody, and it's an implied odds hand that you've overpaid for and can't recover the balance of the implied promise.

jwoodster
06-12-2008, 06:01 PM
Each time you act in poker requires a new decision, so let’s analyze his preflop play in two stages:

First, the limp under the gun with 55: We all know that basic pre flop starting hand strategy says to fold this hand preflop. However, we also all know there is more to winning poker than basic pre flop strategy.

In this situation, the player has to take into account the type of table he is playing at, which in this case is a LAG table. So by limping in , under the gun he is opening himself up to re raise or even a 3 bet preflop.

A pocket pair improves to three of a kind on the flop 1 in every 8 times or about 12% of the time. In other words 7 out of 8 times your pocket pair does not improve, so your odds against it happening is 7 to 1.

So limping in with a small pocket pair should be done in late position on a passive loose table, not under the gun on a loose aggressive table that is short handed.

But this player did, and the player on the button raised and both blinds folded leaving the player who limped heads up with the raiser who is a tight aggressive player.

So the first thing that should go through this player’s head is that at best his hand is a coin flip but more than likely completely dominated. That is reason alone to fold.

He should not reraise as he is opening himself up to a 4th bet preflop.

A call in this situation means the player is putting one small bet into a pot of 4.5 small bets or $5 into a $22. The player is obviously now at this point hoping to hit trips which means he has 2 outs. The odds against hitting a 5 on the turn is 22 to 1, so if the pot is at least 22 times his call, then he should have called, otherwise he should have folded. Clearly the pot is not at $110 so he should have folded.

So this player not only made his first mistake by trying to limp in with 55 he made a huge second statistical error by calling the raise.

This is a common mistake by beginners chasing pocket pairs or players who go from playing No Limit to Limit hold’em

jwoodster
06-12-2008, 06:03 PM
so the player with 55 called the pre flop raise, so now we are onto the flop:

the flop was: 4h,7c,Qh

the player with 55 checked and the player on the button who had raised bet,what should the plaer under the gun do?

call , raise or fold

Barton
06-12-2008, 06:14 PM
call, he has no idea what the button has

jwoodster
06-12-2008, 06:33 PM
why is that Barton, the player who raised is tight aggressive, he certanly should be able to put the player on a range of hands. Again i will wait a few days before putting in my opinion and what the player actually did.

viffer
06-12-2008, 07:29 PM
So this player not only made his first mistake by trying to limp in with 55 he made a huge second statistical error by calling the raise.



Statistically, this may be true but there is more to it than that. IMO folding pre flop to the button raise is very weak and will be exploited. Aggro players will walk all over us. Its HU and there is a fair chance to grab the initiative on a rags flop.

I think a flop call here is not the best move. It does nothing to define our hand or give us any clue as to where we stand. Whats our plan on the turn? The flop bet is an auto bet from any TAG and means nothing.

It will be read dependent whether I get fiesty with this hand and raise it (and I probably am). I want to know how this guy reacts to pressure. Assuming he is standard full ring TAG then Im raising here to see what he does. Im not automatically putting him on AA. There is a ton of stuff he could have raised pre with here and I have a fair chance to move him off.

We need to know where we stand and a TAG will normally tell me on the flop after a Craise.

Barton
06-12-2008, 07:56 PM
Remember this is FL Viffer. If you check call he continues to Bluff his AK AJ etc. If he has you beat you lose less and if you have him beat you win more. If you think a chk raise will fold big no pair hands by all means do it.

viffer
06-13-2008, 03:02 AM
It's an interesting spot for sure. I'm never quite sure the best line here. There is a balance between protecting my hand and allowing him to bluff at it.

The call down line here is going to cost 2.5 BB's and we either win or lose and we are praying the whole way that a) he doesn't catch his AK by the river or b) he's not already ahead. We lose 2.5 if we are beat but if we are ahead, he likely checks through the river so we only win 1.5 if we are ahead.... but we won't know that until showdown.

A C/raise will normally let us know where we stand 'cos villian would normally 3 bet here with a made hand but is unlikely to do so with say AK (normally). we can now get away knowing we are behind so we lose only 1/2 or 1 BB depending if we fold or call the flop (to c/f turn). If he just calls the flop, we fire turn and he (normally) folds if he is behind (thereby protecting our hand) or raises and we get away. So the difference is we lose 1/2 bb when beat (if we're disciplined) instead of 2.5 and win likely only 1/2. The key for me is we aint in such a strong position here so I would prefer to close it down early and take a small edge before that damn Ace falls on the river.

Of course, he could slow roll his Aces so we lose 3 or he could call us down with AK where we win 2 or 3.

I tend to be a bit aggro so tend to take the C/R line to grab initiative, fold equity and protect my hand.... maybe I'm not getting the value out of my hands that I could? Maybe I'm overplaying? Comments? Hmm, this is the route of those pesky swings :p

riverrunner
06-13-2008, 08:35 AM
A CR won't fold out any unimproved Ax or 88-JJ hand just yet from the button, it'll take a turn lead as well and even that is iffy since we don't have much other than QJ that we could be representing, and the flush draw on board will lead them to be more sticky.

I wouldn't find myself here, but a calldown seems to be too expensive and putting in a raise anywhere has no merit; which leads me towards pitching it and reminding myself why I would play it differently preflop.

I do think if you take the calldown approach that donking a non A/K river has merit, as long as you fold to a raise. It is hardly a WA/WB situation since if ahead villian has at least 6 outs.

viffer
06-13-2008, 09:23 AM
Agree, it's the pre flop limp that caused this mess. That first move screws up the rest of the hand. Position sucks, reads suck, hand sucks... I'm just stubborn sometimes :).

Barton
06-13-2008, 12:19 PM
Exactly. Had you raised preflop and been 3 bet, you would be in a much better position to know what to do now.

viffer
06-17-2008, 06:22 AM
Blimey, the dealing on this hand is almost as slow as P4:p

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 08:28 AM
If you want to win long term in limit poker there is nothing more important than pot and implied odds, especially in this case when you are hoping for your pocket pair to improve to trips.

A player should be putting his opponent on a range of hands. With this player being TAG it is quite easy to put him on a range of hands. If this was done it would have told the player that he was losing to any of a possible 12 hands that the TAG player could have raised with. Remember this is a TAG player not a LAG player. Two of these possible it wouldn’t matter if he hit his trips he would still be losing.

I respectfully disagree with Viffer’s statement saying there is more to the decision than statistics and here is why:

The chances against hitting your trips on the turn is 22 to 1. So for every 22 times you do not make this hand you will once. In other words you make trips once every 23 times.
So the one time that you do make trips and win the pot needs to make up for the other 22 times that you do call and do not make trips. In other words the pot would have to be $110 to make this the proper call.

So by calling on the flop the player is putting $5 into a pot of $27. So 22 times he will lose the hand and lose the $5 ( 22 x 5 = $110 ). The one time he will get trips and win he would make $27. Long term he loses $83. ( $110 - $27 )

So even if you throw the stats out the window, and the player with 55 was able to win this hand 3 times by bluffing on the turn and making his opponent fold he is still loses $19. $27 x 3 = $81, yet the other 20 times you lose you have spent $100.

He would have to win the hand at least 4 times for there to be a profit. In other words he would have to bluff his opponent on the turn 3 times out of every 23 times for him to make a profit. Remember this is a mid level limit game where bluffing is difficult.

This now allows luck to enter the equation as the chances of this happening are slim.

The ability to calculate pot and implied odds is a necessary part of any poker players game. The goal should be to play the law of averages rather than blind luck, in determining whether or not calling a bet is a profitable decision.

So statistics does has everything to do with it.

Also, remember just because you hit trips does not mean you will win the hand. This is limit poker not no limit, There is a big difference here as it will be hard to get any type of player to fold his hand heads up, never mind a tight aggressive player.

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 08:29 AM
The Turn is the 3 of spades

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 08:41 AM
Another way to look at it is this way: Out of the 12 possible hands that the TAG player could have he is anywhere from a 84% to a 97% favourite to win the hand. So the player with 55 only has somewhere between 3% and 16% chance of winning he hand. Ergo, his call of $5 should not represent more than 16% of the pot. In this case it represents 18.5%

Barton
06-17-2008, 09:33 AM
How many percent you adding in for the chance 55 is the best hand?

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 10:24 AM
when Barton, preflop or flop? As already mentioned, if the player with 55 was thinking at all about what his opponent had (remembering his opponent is a TAG player) he would have been putting him on a range of hands of about 21 hands (not taking into account the suits of these cards)

so preflop, with his opponents preflop raise this should tell him that out of the 21 possible hands he is in a coinflip situation with 11 hands, completely dominated with 9 hands, and ahead dominating his opponent with one.


on the flop, on 12 of them he is at least an 84% dog on the flop and needs to hit a 2 outer on turn, 2 hands he is at least a 93% dog and 7 hands that he is about a 75% favourite. So he has a 33% chance of his 55 being ahead.

Keep in mind the possibility that his opponent his opponents hand contains two hearts, ergo he is still slightly behind albiet still in a coin flip situation.

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 10:29 AM
anyways , adding in % for him winning is irrelevant and does not enter into the eqaution. obviously the player thought he was behind becasue he just checked and called the flop. If he thought for a second he was ahead he would have bet out, knowing there is a good chance he would be raised and then he could 3 bet.

also, if he had any thought that he may be ahead on the flop, coming out betting with a sos called feeler bet would let him know would give him an idea of where he stood.

checking and calling on the flop is a very passive play , and means that you believe you are behind when you are playing heads up in limit play. Remember this is limit not no limit where you might be thinking of trapping your opponent for a huge all in bet.

viffer
06-17-2008, 10:48 AM
I don't disagree with what you are saying there. Stats is a major part of any decision. I think the point is that we are playing against other people and they exhibit behaviours that can be exploited. Some people won't fold EVER. I've seen calls with stuff like 8 high. Other people are looking for an excuse to get out and fold good winning but not best hands.

So I agree stats are important but situations are important too. Here we have a situation where a TAG has raised and the flop texture looks pretty ugly for him. There is a fairly high chance TAGS range missed this flop. Statistically, we may not hold up by the river and I don't really want to take this to showdown. The point is although statistically, TAG may be ahead, he doesn't know that and if he missed with his AK for example, he probably lays it down. The second key thing is if he hit, he will probably tell us on the flop meaning we can comfortably get away ourselves.

In this situation (ignoring the limp pre which I wouldn't do) I'm pretty sure I get folds on more than 4 out of 23, I'm continually surprised by the % who call down with A high (but I do exhibit lag tendencies from time to time) and yes, now and again, I get lucky and catch a card.

Critical here is knowing we are playing the player... the cards don't much matter IMO. If playing the player fails and opponent doesn't do what we want then get out quickly... as you've proved, it's not statistically correct to play the cards.

On the hand itself, what I do on that turn is wholly dependent on what TAG did on the flop. It's not a bad card for us because it surely didn't help him (unless it makes a draw but I can't remember the flop!). Assuming he called the flop C/R, I probably continuation bet the Turn and expect him to fold. If he 3bet the flop, I'm gone (probably on the flop).

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 10:53 AM
I would say that in limit you play more the cards then the player and in NL playing the player is much more important.

What do you mean tha there is a good chance TAG missed the flop?

viffer
06-17-2008, 10:53 AM
anyways , adding in % for him winning is irrelevant and does not enter into the eqaution. obviously the player thought he was behind becasue he just checked and called the flop. If he thought for a second he was ahead he would have bet out, knowing there is a good chance he would be raised and then he could 3 bet.

also, if he had any thought that he may be ahead on the flop, coming out betting with a sos called feeler bet would let him know would give him an idea of where he stood.

checking and calling on the flop is a very passive play , and means that you believe you are behind when you are playing heads up in limit play. Remember this is limit not no limit where you might be thinking of trapping your opponent for a huge all in bet.

Blimey, you post fast... 2 in the time it took me to write my 1 :p

Agree, calling is the last thing to do...this is a raise of fold and fold is a big option.

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 11:02 AM
Blimey, you post fast... 2 in the time it took me to write my 1 :p

Agree, calling is the last thing to do...this is a raise of fold and fold is a big option.


:) so anyways the turn is the 3 of spades

viffer
06-17-2008, 11:14 AM
I would say that in limit you play more the cards then the player and in NL playing the player is much more important.

What do you mean tha there is a good chance TAG missed the flop?

There are a bunch of hands that TAG could have raised with (i'm trying to ignore that it's Aces) and missed when the only high card on the board is a Q.
AK - A9 maybe and maybe 8 for suited, KJ,KT, maybe JT, maybe it's 66-22 ... the point is, apart from the FD, this is not a particularly nice flop for TAG if he raised say AK and he is going to be feeling uncomfortable so a bit more pressure with aggressive play is maybe what it needs.

Also, I think you under estimate the value of playing players in Limit. Properly placed continuation bets, value bets and river checks based on reads alone have earned and saved me a fortune in Limit. (which I play exclusively).

Obviously, a flop Check Fold is a good line here, too and I wouldn't critisise anyone for taking it.. as has been said though the limp pre is not good.

Good discussion :D

viffer
06-17-2008, 11:17 AM
:) so anyways the turn is the 3 of spades

If he called my rather aggro C/R I fire again expecting a fold. I fold to a raise

If he 3 bet me flop, as I would expect him to do with a made hand, I fold.

Barton
06-17-2008, 12:09 PM
checking and calling on the flop is a very passive play , and means that you believe you are behind when you are playing heads up in limit play. Remember this is limit not no limit where you might be thinking of trapping your opponent for a huge all in bet.

Not true. Against some players the check call is best. If you are beat you lose less and if he has say AK he keeps bluffing (putting you on the flush draw maybe) and you win more.

Barton
06-17-2008, 12:21 PM
So the first thing that should go through this player’s head is that at best his hand is a coin flip but more than likely completely dominated. That is reason alone to fold.


This also isn't true. Since the 55 limped a button tag will have a huge range. He wan't the blinds out. I consider myself a tag and I would be raising with A9+, any pair, KQ maybe KJ lots of suited crap. Even if the Tag is so tight he only raises with AA KK and AK you are likely ahead.

SplashMaster
06-17-2008, 01:11 PM
reading through this thread, I will add my 2 cents in, since I was the player with 55 and Jwoodster was the player with AA. first, lets get the fact CORRECT. it was not 5-10 it was 2-4 limit, as jwoodster/Hamilton1 only plays up to 3-6 , never 5-10 that I have seen,and the game was 7 or 8 handed.

the game was very passive preflop so I decided to come in for a limp with 55, as each hand was getting 3-5 way limps with virtually no preflpp raising. Hamilton1 raised on the button and it came back around to me and I called. the flop was Q 7 4, I check called Hamiltons flop bet

Hamilton is a player who will 3 barrell Overs/ no pair, his starting selection is fairly tight, he overvalues many hands though.

turn was the 3, again I check called( with the intention of check calling river unless I hit a hand) I would check/call the river to induce a bet from 2 overs, or lose the min if he has a better hand. I felt strongly that I had the best hand and thought the best value was to check and hope to get a riv bluff( which I stated I have seen this player do many times) If I bet the river he folds air, If I check he may bluff, pretty simple, us "beginners" actually think sometimes during a hand. SHOCKING

anyway, the riv I make a running straight and lead out and beat his AA, which was followed by a chorus of "amazings" "LOL: " nice chasing" ect,ect,ect

If you're going to try and analyze a hand you should give ALL the info, plenty of times I open muck small pairs in those games, depending on the lineup, and knowing it will be 3-4 bets before it gets back to me. The table dynamics called for an easy limp with 55, and again, I had seen this player fire hopelessly with overs many times. and again, my read was wrong this time and I got lucky. MOVE ON

all you see is 1 hand out of 1000 where I check called you with 55 and beat you, I was wrong and got lucky, oh well, shall we post the times you fire with AK/AQ/AJ on 56298 boards (only to be called when you are beat) you should "analyze" those hands sir.

SplashMaster
06-17-2008, 01:14 PM
Not true. Against some players the check call is best. If you are beat you lose less and if he has say AK he keeps bluffing (putting you on the flush draw maybe) and you win more.

yes, barton, I take this line against a few players on that site alot of the time.

riverrunner
06-17-2008, 01:25 PM
turn was the 3, again I check called( with the intention of check calling river unless I hit a hand) I would check/call the river to induce a bet from 2 overs, or lose the min if he has a better hand. I felt strongly that I had the best hand and thought the best value was to check and hope to get a riv bluff( which I stated I have seen this player do many times) If I bet the river he folds air, If I check he may bluff, pretty simple.

I think given this read and line, leading a non-ace river has merit since he will likely call you with unimproved Ace high, but often check it behind. And if raised, then your read was off and you can fold.

SplashMaster
06-17-2008, 01:29 PM
I think given this read and line, leading a non-ace river has merit since he will likely call you with unimproved Ace high, but often check it behind. And if raised, then your read was off and you can fold.

yes, but the K high hands that were possible(KT/KJ/ect) as well as the really bad Ace high hands may not call a riv bet.

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 01:55 PM
Not true. Against some players the check call is best. If you are beat you lose less and if he has say AK he keeps bluffing (putting you on the flush draw maybe) and you win more.


against some players yes like a baboon, but against a TAG no it is not

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 01:57 PM
This also isn't true. Since the 55 limped a button tag will have a huge range. He wan't the blinds out. I consider myself a tag and I would be raising with A9+, any pair, KQ maybe KJ lots of suited crap. Even if the Tag is so tight he only raises with AA KK and AK you are likely ahead.


yes you are right Barton, so my statement is true

Barton
06-17-2008, 01:59 PM
yes, barton, I take this line against a few players on that site alot of the time.

It's probably a good line to take against me:D.


I get annoyed when someone takes that line on a really scary flop and wins. like the 55 gets a flop of KQJ. Sure enough my raise pre was A9.

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 01:59 PM
This also isn't true. Since the 55 limped a button tag will have a huge range. He wan't the blinds out. I consider myself a tag and I would be raising with A9+, any pair, KQ maybe KJ lots of suited crap. Even if the Tag is so tight he only raises with AA KK and AK you are likely ahead.


if the TAG is so tight and only raises with AA KK and AK how are you likely ahead with 55? two thirds of those hands are dominating the 55

SplashMaster
06-17-2008, 02:01 PM
It's probably a good line to take against me:D.


I get annoyed when someone takes that line on a really scary flop and wins. like the 55 gets a flop of KQJ. Sure enough my raise pre was A9.

I would check fold 55 in 2 seconds on that flop

SplashMaster
06-17-2008, 02:03 PM
if the TAG is so tight and only raises with AA KK and AK how are you likely ahead with 55? two thirds of those hands are dominating the 55


you raise a lot lighter on the button, and I was the only limper, making hands as weak as Q9 suited raisable to force me to hit a flop. if there were 3 limpers behind me and you raised the button, and that same flop came down, I check fold.

do you see why?

Barton
06-17-2008, 02:09 PM
if the TAG is so tight and only raises with AA KK and AK how are you likely ahead with 55? two thirds of those hands are dominating the 55

AA 6 ways
KK 6 ways

AK 16 ways

16:12 that he has AK

Barton
06-17-2008, 02:18 PM
I get annoyed when someone takes that line on a really scary flop and wins. like the 55 gets a flop of KQJ. Sure enough my raise pre was A9.

I would check fold 55 in 2 seconds on that flop


Many players dont recognize a difference between the 2 flops.

This especially gets me in Omaha. Last night I flopped a wrap str8 and 4 flush head up vs bottom set. He is pumping away on the flop with me being a 60:40 favorite. Of course the board pairs. Not to mention the beautiful starting hand he called 3 bets cold with (77 55).

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 02:19 PM
AA 6 ways
KK 6 ways

AK 16 ways

16:12 that he has AK


good point, however the player with 55 still has made tons of mistakes and shouldn't even be in the hand at this ppoint

Barton
06-17-2008, 02:31 PM
The two of you are disputing the initial conditions. That's why in all poker discussions the answer is "it depends".

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 02:38 PM
The two of you are disputing the initial conditions. That's why in all poker discussions the answer is "it depends".


There is no disputing the initial condition, he had 55 under the gun on a loose aggressive table, he should have folded preflop, that was his first mistake

Barton
06-17-2008, 02:47 PM
He claims the table was not aggressive and that you are not a tag.

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 02:51 PM
reading through this thread, I will add my 2 cents in, since I was the player with 55 and Jwoodster was the player with AA. first, lets get the fact CORRECT. it was not 5-10 it was 2-4 limit, as jwoodster/Hamilton1 only plays up to 3-6 , never 5-10 that I have seen,and the game was 7 or 8 handed.

the game was very passive preflop so I decided to come in for a limp with 55, as each hand was getting 3-5 way limps with virtually no preflpp raising. Hamilton1 raised on the button and it came back around to me and I called. the flop was Q 7 4, I check called Hamiltons flop bet

Hamilton is a player who will 3 barrell Overs/ no pair, his starting selection is fairly tight, he overvalues many hands though.

turn was the 3, again I check called( with the intention of check calling river unless I hit a hand) I would check/call the river to induce a bet from 2 overs, or lose the min if he has a better hand. I felt strongly that I had the best hand and thought the best value was to check and hope to get a riv bluff( which I stated I have seen this player do many times) If I bet the river he folds air, If I check he may bluff, pretty simple, us "beginners" actually think sometimes during a hand. SHOCKING

anyway, the riv I make a running straight and lead out and beat his AA, which was followed by a chorus of "amazings" "LOL: " nice chasing" ect,ect,ect

If you're going to try and analyze a hand you should give ALL the info, plenty of times I open muck small pairs in those games, depending on the lineup, and knowing it will be 3-4 bets before it gets back to me. The table dynamics called for an easy limp with 55, and again, I had seen this player fire hopelessly with overs many times. and again, my read was wrong this time and I got lucky. MOVE ON

all you see is 1 hand out of 1000 where I check called you with 55 and beat you, I was wrong and got lucky, oh well, shall we post the times you fire with AK/AQ/AJ on 56298 boards (only to be called when you are beat) you should "analyze" those hands sir.


listen splash, the game was actually 3/6 limit not 2/4 , 7 handed and very loose, aggressive, and i purposly changed the limit and kept our names out of it, and was tring to do something constructive with getting a good discussion going in steps.

You seem to want to defend yourself , when I had no intention of ever telling anyone it was you, if I wanted to , I would have by now, LOL

If you think I 3 barrel overs/no pair and over value hands that tells me all I need to know about your ability to read players

Not once did I mention your name in this, so why do you feel the need to mention mine. You like to try and stir the pot. well keep doing it , obviously you have nothing better to do wit hyour time. Just like last night when you were not sitting at the table and yet had to type ion amazing to try and get me going. But it didn't work dod it.

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 02:58 PM
reading through this thread, I will add my 2 cents in, since I was the player with 55 and Jwoodster was the player with AA. first, lets get the fact CORRECT. it was not 5-10 it was 2-4 limit, as jwoodster/Hamilton1 only plays up to 3-6 , never 5-10 that I have seen,and the game was 7 or 8 handed.

the game was very passive preflop so I decided to come in for a limp with 55, as each hand was getting 3-5 way limps with virtually no preflpp raising. Hamilton1 raised on the button and it came back around to me and I called. the flop was Q 7 4, I check called Hamiltons flop bet

Hamilton is a player who will 3 barrell Overs/ no pair, his starting selection is fairly tight, he overvalues many hands though.

turn was the 3, again I check called( with the intention of check calling river unless I hit a hand) I would check/call the river to induce a bet from 2 overs, or lose the min if he has a better hand. I felt strongly that I had the best hand and thought the best value was to check and hope to get a riv bluff( which I stated I have seen this player do many times) If I bet the river he folds air, If I check he may bluff, pretty simple, us "beginners" actually think sometimes during a hand. SHOCKING

anyway, the riv I make a running straight and lead out and beat his AA, which was followed by a chorus of "amazings" "LOL: " nice chasing" ect,ect,ect

If you're going to try and analyze a hand you should give ALL the info, plenty of times I open muck small pairs in those games, depending on the lineup, and knowing it will be 3-4 bets before it gets back to me. The table dynamics called for an easy limp with 55, and again, I had seen this player fire hopelessly with overs many times. and again, my read was wrong this time and I got lucky. MOVE ON

all you see is 1 hand out of 1000 where I check called you with 55 and beat you, I was wrong and got lucky, oh well, shall we post the times you fire with AK/AQ/AJ on 56298 boards (only to be called when you are beat) you should "analyze" those hands sir.

If I overvalue my hands and 3 barrel wouldn't a bet on the flop and turn get you at least the same value as minimum I would call, who know I might even raise you. No you checked and called because you thought you were behind and were chasing your 2 outer and got lucky with a runner runner straight. The only other possibility as to why you would check and call, I dont't even want to think of.

If you thought you were ahead then what hand did you think I was preflop raising with? And don't say A or K rag becasue if you know my play as well you say you do, you would know I very very rarely raise on the button with those kinds of hands or even try and steal the blinds for that matter.

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 03:00 PM
He claims the table was not aggressive and that you are not a tag.


Yes you are right Barton, but in my mind there is no dispute, becasue he is wrong, just like he played the hand wrong and got extremely lucky going runner runner and is now trying to justify his play by making up stuff.

SplashMaster
06-17-2008, 03:05 PM
Yes you are right Barton, but in my mind there is no dispute, becasue he is wrong, just like he played the hand wrong and got extremely lucky going runner runner and is now trying to justify his play by making up stuff.


if you say so. keep whining about losing. I played the hand correct under the circumstances, I already said I got lucky and was wrong that particular hand. I forgot you are one of the players blaming the site and/or players cheating you because you dont understand how you can be a losing player.

you're right, I am wrong, end of convo

SplashMaster
06-17-2008, 03:07 PM
you raise a lot lighter on the button, and I was the only limper, making hands as weak as Q9 suited raisable to force me to hit a flop. if there were 3 limpers behind me and you raised the button, and that same flop came down, I check fold.

do you see why?


waiting for your response

SplashMaster
06-17-2008, 03:08 PM
Yes you are right Barton, but in my mind there is no dispute, becasue he is wrong, just like he played the hand wrong and got extremely lucky going runner runner and is now trying to justify his play by making up stuff.


just like you mmade up it was loose 5-10 game? if the game was so loose/AGG, how did we end up heads up in the pot from the flop and beyond? that 1 hand all the maniacs decided to take a break????

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 03:10 PM
reading through this thread, I will add my 2 cents in, since I was the player with 55 and Jwoodster was the player with AA. first, lets get the fact CORRECT. it was not 5-10 it was 2-4 limit, as jwoodster/Hamilton1 only plays up to 3-6 , never 5-10 that I have seen,and the game was 7 or 8 handed.

the game was very passive preflop so I decided to come in for a limp with 55, as each hand was getting 3-5 way limps with virtually no preflpp raising. Hamilton1 raised on the button and it came back around to me and I called. the flop was Q 7 4, I check called Hamiltons flop bet

Hamilton is a player who will 3 barrell Overs/ no pair, his starting selection is fairly tight, he overvalues many hands though.

turn was the 3, again I check called( with the intention of check calling river unless I hit a hand) I would check/call the river to induce a bet from 2 overs, or lose the min if he has a better hand. I felt strongly that I had the best hand and thought the best value was to check and hope to get a riv bluff( which I stated I have seen this player do many times) If I bet the river he folds air, If I check he may bluff, pretty simple, us "beginners" actually think sometimes during a hand. SHOCKING

anyway, the riv I make a running straight and lead out and beat his AA, which was followed by a chorus of "amazings" "LOL: " nice chasing" ect,ect,ect

If you're going to try and analyze a hand you should give ALL the info, plenty of times I open muck small pairs in those games, depending on the lineup, and knowing it will be 3-4 bets before it gets back to me. The table dynamics called for an easy limp with 55, and again, I had seen this player fire hopelessly with overs many times. and again, my read was wrong this time and I got lucky. MOVE ON

all you see is 1 hand out of 1000 where I check called you with 55 and beat you, I was wrong and got lucky, oh well, shall we post the times you fire with AK/AQ/AJ on 56298 boards (only to be called when you are beat) you should "analyze" those hands sir.


I did give all the info Splash, unfortunately I couldn't give everyone what you were thinknig in your head, only the facts and what I saw. If you think I continue to bet and fire with overs all the way you have not been paying much attention.

LOL me calling with A-K , A-Q and AJ on a board of 5,6,2,9,8 all the way to the river is too funny,. The only time I do that is if they are suited and I have the flush. That statement alone shows me you are truly clueless and make up bullshit to justify your mistakes. LMAO

SplashMaster
06-17-2008, 03:14 PM
I did give all the info Splash, unfortunately I couldn't give everyone what you were thinknig in your head, only the facts and what I saw. If you think I continue to bet and fire with overs all the way you have not been paying much attention.

LOL me calling with A-K , A-Q and AJ on a board of 5,6,2,9,8 all the way to the river is too funny,. The only time I do that is if they are suited and I have the flush. That statement alone shows me you are truly clueless and make up bullshit to justify your mistakes. LMAO


I saw you bet A4 last night on the river into a board of 67894 and get called AA.
explain to us the value of betting A4 into that board on the river.
I also saw you making obsevations in chat that were insinuating cheating, like "wow, everytime so snd so player raises, so ans so player re-raises, strange" really smart to type that in chat. I wasnt playing, cuz game had 8 players, I was waiting to get in at the time

again, I made up nothing , I understand you need to get this off your chest, all that losing can take its toll. instead of analyzing 1 single hand, you should analyze your whole approach to the game, then get back to us.

viffer
06-17-2008, 03:18 PM
Although given that 3 of us independently came up with 3 different lines... Barton Calls, River Folds and I Raise... I don't think it can be quite so cut and dry for defining the correct play. All 3 are correct under certain circumstances. Splash has taken Barton's line... hmm... 2 votes maybe he is right :p.

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 03:18 PM
reading through this thread, I will add my 2 cents in, since I was the player with 55 and Jwoodster was the player with AA. first, lets get the fact CORRECT. it was not 5-10 it was 2-4 limit, as jwoodster/Hamilton1 only plays up to 3-6 , never 5-10 that I have seen,and the game was 7 or 8 handed.

the game was very passive preflop so I decided to come in for a limp with 55, as each hand was getting 3-5 way limps with virtually no preflpp raising. Hamilton1 raised on the button and it came back around to me and I called. the flop was Q 7 4, I check called Hamiltons flop bet

Hamilton is a player who will 3 barrell Overs/ no pair, his starting selection is fairly tight, he overvalues many hands though.

turn was the 3, again I check called( with the intention of check calling river unless I hit a hand) I would check/call the river to induce a bet from 2 overs, or lose the min if he has a better hand. I felt strongly that I had the best hand and thought the best value was to check and hope to get a riv bluff( which I stated I have seen this player do many times) If I bet the river he folds air, If I check he may bluff, pretty simple, us "beginners" actually think sometimes during a hand. SHOCKING

anyway, the riv I make a running straight and lead out and beat his AA, which was followed by a chorus of "amazings" "LOL: " nice chasing" ect,ect,ect

If you're going to try and analyze a hand you should give ALL the info, plenty of times I open muck small pairs in those games, depending on the lineup, and knowing it will be 3-4 bets before it gets back to me. The table dynamics called for an easy limp with 55, and again, I had seen this player fire hopelessly with overs many times. and again, my read was wrong this time and I got lucky. MOVE ON

all you see is 1 hand out of 1000 where I check called you with 55 and beat you, I was wrong and got lucky, oh well, shall we post the times you fire with AK/AQ/AJ on 56298 boards (only to be called when you are beat) you should "analyze" those hands sir.


what is your definition of passive preflop, there were seven of us at the table,( I can name then if you like and we will see how passive they are) and I was the 2nd most passive of all the players at the table as far as my prelop play goes.

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 03:28 PM
I saw you bet A4 last night on the river into a board of 67894 and get called AA.
explain to us the value of betting A4 into that board on the river.
I also saw you making obsevations in chat that were insinuating cheating, like "wow, everytime so snd so player raises, so ans so player re-raises, strange" really smart to type that in chat. I wasnt playing, cuz game had 8 players, I was waiting to get in at the time

again, I made up nothing , I understand you need to get this off your chest, all that losing can take its toll. instead of analyzing 1 single hand, you should analyze your whole approach to the game, then get back to us.

I never insinuated cheating at all and if i did say strange or wow it had nothing to do with the play or even directed at anyone, to be honest I don't remember , I may have said strange and wow in a converstion with you, when you said amazing for no reason at all trying to get me to say something. In fact now I remember that was when I did say those words.
you are true child and a liar LOL, LMAO


Also the A+4 was suited clubs and i was 4 to the flush on the flop, i didnt preflop raise with it , i hit a pair on the river and thought maybe fruitjaw had A-K and missed as he had PFR

SplashMaster
06-17-2008, 03:31 PM
I never insinuated cheating at all and if i did say strange or wow it had nothing to do with the play or even directed at anyone, to be honest I don't remember , I may have said strange and wow in a converstion with you, when you said amazing for no reason at all trying to get me to say something. In fact now I remember that was when I did say those words.
you are true child and a liar LOL, LMAO


Also the A+4 was suited clubs and i was 4 to the flush on the flop, i didnt preflop raise with it , i hit a pair on the river and thought maybe fruitjaw had A-K and missed as he had PFR


you just proved my point, and you dont even know why, so very sad.

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 03:37 PM
you just proved my point, and you dont even know why, so very sad.


I answerd both your questions, the words wow and strange were in response to you saying amazing while you were watching the game and decised to try and stir the pot, a conversation between you and I strated and that is when I said those words. Anyone with the hand histories can verify that.


One thing that I do know about human nature is that when people are caught lying, or streatching the truth, they ignore the part of the answer that proves them wrong or lying and focus purposly on other parts of the answer.

I suggest you re read my answer splash.

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 03:41 PM
Although given that 3 of us independently came up with 3 different lines... Barton Calls, River Folds and I Raise... I don't think it can be quite so cut and dry for defining the correct play. All 3 are correct under certain circumstances. Splash has taken Barton's line... hmm... 2 votes maybe he is right :p.


this is why I put the hand up in the first place, so we all could discuss it and learn, however splas the little child had to ruin it LOL

SplashMaster
06-17-2008, 03:45 PM
I answerd both your questions, the words wow and strange were in response to you saying amazing while you were watching the game and decised to try and stir the pot, a conversation between you and I strated and that is when I said those words. Anyone with the hand histories can verify that.


One thing that I do know about human nature is that when people are caught lying, or streatching the truth, they ignore the part of the answer that proves them wrong or lying and focus purposly on other parts of the answer.

I suggest you re read my answer splash.

what part proves me wrong? show us the hand history if I am lying. before, BEFORE I typed in amazing you had no idea I was watching the table, and you were typing in the stuff about players raising/re-raisng

I was talking about the VALUE of betting A4 on the riv, your response shows why( or at least part of the reason) why you are a losing player.

I really dont feel the need to enlighten you, you started out lying in this thread about stakes and game make up. it was such a wild and crazy game, yet we were heads up that hand. you can post whatever you want. I will not reply. worry about your stupid chat that is PUTTING ALL THE PROPS IN JEOPARDY. Like this, in case anyone missed it
http://www.onlineproppingforum.com/showthread.php?t=1847

SplashMaster
06-17-2008, 03:46 PM
this is why I put the hand up in the first place, so we all could discuss it and learn, however splas the little child had to ruin it LOL
I ruined it because you're painting the wrong picture of the hand/ table dynamics...uh oh...table dynamics....better get out a poker dictionary for you

riverrunner
06-17-2008, 03:58 PM
I feel dirty for participating in this. But hey if it'll make it more fun I'd raise the turn.

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 04:02 PM
what part proves me wrong? show us the hand history if I am lying. before, BEFORE I typed in amazing you had no idea I was watching the table, and you were typing in the stuff about players raising/re-raisng

I was talking about the VALUE of betting A4 on the riv, your response shows why( or at least part of the reason) why you are a losing player.

I really dont feel the need to enlighten you, you started out lying in this thread about stakes and game make up. it was such a wild and crazy game, yet we were heads up that hand. you can post whatever you want. I will not reply. worry about your stupid chat that is PUTTING ALL THE PROPS IN JEOPARDY. Like this, in case anyone missed it
http://www.onlineproppingforum.com/showthread.php?t=1847


it is funny that you think i am a losing player, but i am glad you do,

instead of saying that i was talking about raising and re raising and saying wow and stuff . put the hand histories up here with out editing them so we can see the whole context.

i wasnt lying about anything in this thread, I changed the stakes and kept names out on purpose because I knew if i didn't this was going to happen becasue you are a baby.

I put this hand , in the proper section of the forum so we could analyze it as there are some of us who enjoy it and like to learn from it. As stated , I had no intentions of ever bringing up your name or mine, in fact I originally was going to postthe hand history and had xxxxxxxxx out both our names. If I was going to bring your name or my name into it I would have done it by now.

You were the one who decided to tell people it was you and I, for whatever reason, not sure what it is , guilt, stupidity, childish behavour, who knows maybe all three

now you are refusing to continue this debate becasue you know you are wrong and you were the one who was trying to cause shit last night by typing in amazing,

nothing in what i said last night in the chat was insinuating cheating nor did it jeapordize the prop program,

Why do you keep bringing up cheating? Studies on human behavour suggest............ ah never mind

viffer
06-17-2008, 04:56 PM
I feel dirty for participating in this. But hey if it'll make it more fun I'd raise the turn.

I'll cap it if it will stop this futile argument

riverrunner
06-17-2008, 04:57 PM
I double cappucino 6th street every time

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 05:04 PM
I ruined it because you're painting the wrong picture of the hand/ table dynamics...uh oh...table dynamics....better get out a poker dictionary for you


The only difference between what happened and what was in this thread was that I changed the stakes from 3/6 Limit to 5/10 limit, both still mis level stakes and I kept your name and my name out of it. Everything else was factual. Again I have the names of the other players, would you like me to release them and see if they considerthemselves to be passive preflop. I bet you don't. News flash - if you have a majoirty of players at the table who are aggressive players pre flop the table is not a passive table.

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 05:07 PM
splash you are the same person who insinuated in another thread that there is no implied odds in limit hold'em which there clearly is, better get out the poker dictionary

viffer
06-17-2008, 05:09 PM
I double cappucino 6th street every time

Oh well, they are still at it... at least we tried :p

riverrunner
06-17-2008, 09:47 PM
Oh well, they are still at it... at least we tried :p


Reminds me of my youth. When I still thought I had a right to pots and stuff.

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 11:36 PM
the game was very passive preflop so I decided to come in for a limp with 55, as each hand was getting 3-5 way limps with virtually no preflpp raising. Hamilton1 raised on the button and it came back around to me and I called. the flop was Q 7 4, I check called Hamiltons flop bet



anyway, the riv I make a running straight and lead out and beat his AA, which was followed by a chorus of "amazings" "LOL: " nice chasing" ect,ect,ect



the previous 40 hands before the 55 vs AA hand (all hold'em as this was a split game - so these 40 hands do not include Omaha hands ) there was 31 pre flop raises and 7 re raises ( 3 bets) preflop , definately not a passive game pre flop. I have the hand histories to prove this.

Also, the next hand splash came out with the question " amazing right? " so I answered him, and a conversation developed between us.

I have the hand #'s if anybody is interested ( I suspect not lol )

jwoodster
06-17-2008, 11:52 PM
the average # of players to see the flop over these 40 hands was 2.425 with 21 hands only 2 players seeing the flop and another 4 hands and another 4 hands not even getting to a flop.

also the previous 9 hands before 55 vs AA (all after the latest omaha round) there was 8 hands with pre flop raises and 2 of them had 3 bets pre flop with the average # of players seeing the flop at 2.444

jwoodster
06-18-2008, 07:52 AM
so now that the little interruption is over, we can get back to analyzing this hand, I am thinking ( since it has now been clearly shown that the table was aggressive pre flop ) and probably more tight than loose after the flop ( yes I did originally say loose but I made a mistake) , that limping in with 55 under the gun is definately the wrong move.

However , I am starting to like the idea of raising here because there is a good chance to get the # of opponents down to 2 or 3. By raising under the gun you should be able to fire off a continuation bet on the flop if an A comes ( maybe even a K or Q) and get your opponents to fold. Also if you do hit your miracle 2 outer and flop a set , your implied odds here should be very good.

also by raising preflop if another player 3 bets you, this should give you a lot of info on the players hand ( because of the type of table it is, which obviously has a direct realtionship to the type of players playing at the table) - mind you the same info can be received from limping in and another player raises you pre flop.


folding pre flop here is a good option as well as 55's EV over 521,945 hands is .02 It has the 37th highest ranked EV and there are only 7 other hands with a small or zero EV, then all the other starting hands havea negative EV. So, obviously with this hand not being a very strong starting hand, folding is a good option as well, especially from under the gun

The other reason to fold pre flop is that you only hit your three of a kind on the flop 1 in 8 times, so this kind of table, (aggressive pre flop and tight post flop ) is obviously not going to get you the pot that you need to justify limping in here.

IDontTilt
06-18-2008, 10:55 PM
This thread started up very very nice. Let's get more of these, and less of the arguements in between please. Thanks guys. :)

jwoodster
06-18-2008, 11:21 PM
I agree

phantomshark
10-23-2008, 03:55 PM
I'm not sure why the AA hand is so upset here. I don't see a spot in this hand where I would have folded 55, the only quibbling might be raise vs call or bet vs check.