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GottaFold
12-16-2008, 09:39 AM
I just noticed how old the threads I replied to in here are, LOL. Here's a hand I played today if anyone still comes to this section of the forum anymore.

Playing $0.50/$1 NL on PitbullPoker

Pre-Flop
- I'm dealt 6h 8h
- I raise to $3.50 from the cut off and get called by only the big blind

Flop (pot is $7.50)
- Ac 6d 2h
- My opponent checks to me
- I make a continuation bet of $4.50 with middle pair and he calls

Turn (pot is $16.50)
- Ac 6d 2h Jh
- He checks to me again
- I almost kept betting here, but he's a pretty tight player so I thought he probably had a good hand since he called the flop, I don't think I have much fold equity, I feel like he probably has the A
- I check behind and take a free card with my flush draw

River (pot is $16.50)
- Ac 6d 2h Jh 8c
- He checks to me a third time
- I make two pair and bet $10
- Now he raises me to $30
- ???

I thought like I got lucky and made two pair against his aces, but now that he check raises me on the river what do I do here?

bcblack182
12-16-2008, 10:14 AM
How does he play, and what is your image? If you are both playing nitty, easy fold. If he is capable of making moves you have to call. It sure looks like aces up though.

dead money888
12-16-2008, 01:37 PM
if this was the first hand the guy had played in the last half hour then I would think about folding,

otherwise I would figure there is already 26.50 in the pot and he is only raising 20 so I would call with 2 pair, and hope that he was slow playing A K or something like that.

GottaFold
12-16-2008, 05:07 PM
He's playing pretty nitty, but I like to play a lot of hands. My image is pretty loose, but I don't know if he's capable of making this play because of my image. When he raises me I only have to call $20 to win $56.50, but I just can't figure out what I beat when I try to put him on a hand. All I can think of is that he hit the river with A8 or he slowplayed a hand like 22, A6, JJ, or maybe was even trying to call me down with 88. The thing that makes me really lean towards folding is that there isn't even any draw on the flop that he could be turning into a bluff here.

rawdawg_7
12-16-2008, 06:52 PM
You can only beat a bluff. There's no since trying to making a hero call. Just fold and find a better opportunity.

Calling a loser is a lot worse than folding a winner!

GottaFold
12-18-2008, 02:01 AM
RawDawg7, I agree with you about this hand. I can only beat a bluff or possibly a strangely played AK, but I really doubt that. I ended up folding and hopefully I was right. I think I was, but he didn't show so I'll never know for sure.

I'm not sure if I agree with what else you just said though. Why do you think calling a loser is worse than folding a winner?

Obviously both are mistakes, but I would think folding the winner would be worse. When you call with a losing hand you just lose that one extra bet that you've called off, but when you fold the winner you're missing out on the whole pot that you could have won. I would generally think that it costs you more money when you fold a winner. Also, it can't hurt to have people think you're making too many loose calls.

I'm not saying this is a reason to start calling more though. You're still gonna make the best decision you can on any given hand, but if you do make a mistake I just think that folding a winner would be the worse mistake than calling with a losing hand.

I never really gave it much thought before, but I just thought it was sort of interesting what you said there since my opinion was different. Anyone else agree or disagree?

Lee777
12-18-2008, 02:20 AM
I think it was Amarillo Slim that said " I knew I became a good player when I started throwing winning hands away"

Rykey101
12-18-2008, 03:18 AM
I would have called pretty quickly here. The way it was played you're screaming that the ace scares you. If I'm villain I'm reraising the river with basically any ace here, as well as KK /QQ/ KJ just for value.

And I tend to agree with RawDawg aswell.

(Best example of a wellknown player/pro playing the opposite is probably Stu Ungar.) He was known for making brilliant calls, but was never known to make big laydowns. Ofcourse, he was a huge gambling junkie who mostly just craved the action... So take it for what it is.

GottaFold
12-18-2008, 12:06 PM
I know he's too nitty to play KK, QQ, or KJ like that.

I could see betting out with those hands, but you would really check-raise those hands for value? You already said it looks like the A scares me, so if you don't think I have an A then how do you get called by a worse hand in that spot?

If you bet out you might get a call from a worse pair and if you check-call you can induce a bluff from a hand that wouldn't have otherwise paid you off, but I don't see how check-raising makes much sense with those hands.

Rykey101
12-20-2008, 11:20 AM
I will try to answer this when I get back from work.

Erwinius
01-17-2009, 05:36 AM
I will try to answer this when I get back from work.
You never made it back from work?

btw. what was the outcome of the hand?

GottaFold
01-18-2009, 04:33 PM
There was no showdown. I folded it, don't know what he had.

szim88
01-19-2009, 09:13 AM
I think it was Amarillo Slim that said " I knew I became a good player when I started throwing winning hands away"

There's never any shame in throwing a "winning" hand away. Granted, this is YOUR perception of your hand "winning." Every situation is different; the situation described above is screaming aces up (or worse...set), especially if he's a tight player, either way I never feel that great about middle or low 2 pr on a checkraised river. The problem really started when you raised with that type of hand preflop (I do it too...). That hand is great if you make a straight but can be poor with a flush or anything else (unless you make a goofy boat or something), and you can lose a big pot. They are fun hands to play to the river; you just can't get too confident with them. Players also think checking the river is weak, but if you might be beat (or just don't know), it's not an awful play.

Foticcine
03-23-2009, 08:30 PM
I have to disagree with szim88, raising with that kind of hand is perfectly fine. They are playing 6 handed (unless I'm mistaken) and you should be widening your raising range in late position. The guy decided to defend the big blind (and not 3bet) so I wouldn't put him on a really big hand at all. C-betting middle pair on the flop is automatic and betting or checking the turn are both fine. If you bet the turn and find he check-raised then you can get away easy. Also, If he really had a big hand and was looking to check-call the flop and check-raise the turn, he should have lead out on the river. Check-raising the river just doesn't make much sense. If the game is 6 handed then I would call 2 pair pretty much every time in that spot. If you find out that he had a set and played it that way, then he made numerous mistakes throughout the hand and now you have more information on that player. If you know that a player is weak, tight, and makes mistakes in the form of being passive, then I'll keep playing against him all day and keep calling with 2 pair. If he thinks that he has to wait for made hands in order to bet/raise then you'll be able to run him over all day in short-handed play. When in doubt, go with your read, but I think calling here is totally fine and the rest of the hand was played just fine as well.